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THE ANSWER
reilanchan \| 01/30/2004 @467 \| edit post

This may be the answer for all who wonder why every artwork can be uploaded here, the answer for ALL that threads.

I thought about that again yesterday evening. People where wondering why those who can't offer a professional quality are allowed to submit their artwork, here is the answer:

This is a place which's also searching for people who gain a webspace here and will pay for it, to host their pictures here.

This may explain why nobody, no matter how good he is, is "kicked" out.

mata ne
rei-lan

Re: THE ANSWER
amongfaeries \| 02/01/2004 @146 \| edit post

i think of GFX as more than just a "proffesional quality artwork" site. that's so snobby. it's a learning community. everyone here is passionate about art and want to become the best they can be. this site can nurture their talent. some of us aren't proffesional quality, but we're working towards it. and when people comment on our work on how we can improve it, we listen and learn.

Re: THE ANSWER
reilanchan \| 02/01/2004 @221 \| edit post

Yeah that's right but the discussions in the last days may have shown that the opinion of the people who are around here are very different.

Re: THE ANSWER
gridlock \| 02/01/2004 @248 \| edit post

Heard in a nationally televised event: "You're boring as it is, and now you've started bitching! The only thing that's worse than a bore is a bitch!"

My point here - - GFXArtist is supposed to be a learning community (at least thats what I was under the understanding of).... but I agree with ReiLanChan... off late, some of the discussions have spun off into a less than co-ordial "meeting of the minds" (shall we say?) to the point where its beginning to get annoying! Its just another Pandora's Box waiting to be opened.... the less said about this the better. Put your best foot forward, and make your best effort. Every forum on the Internet has a few individuals who stir up trouble. In Norse Mythology, I believe Valhalla had someone like that called Loki - - - when Odin finally got fed up with him, he banished him - but thats another story!

[Message edited on 02/01 @251]

Re: THE ANSWER
arenhaus \| 02/01/2004 @371 \| edit post

Only Odin was no small trickster himself, more likely to win by deception and magic than by honest combat.

Re: THE ANSWER
amongfaeries \| 02/01/2004 @685 \| edit post

gridlock...i completely agree. it makes me feel very inferior when people start complaining that younger people and people with not so amazing skills shouldn't be able to post. it is a learning community after all

Re: THE ANSWER
Lox2Eagle \| 02/01/2004 @727 \| edit post

what is so bad about this site being a little bit arrogant? surely weve got a learning community as well, there is no contradiction. i learn a lot myself by reading and posting here. and yet i didnt dare to submit my artwork to the gallery yet, because i would feel uncomfortable with it. i believe that is ok. i dont want to post something to get the same crits every second or third image gets. fortunately this site still got some flair that differs from other communities that are oftenly goofed on here. a good deal of the images are artistic, new, experimental stuff, pieces not seen so far, and it should stay this way.

greetings, loxi

[Message edited on 02/01 @728]

Re: THE ANSWER
gridlock \| 02/01/2004 @748 \| edit post

_quote:
arenhaus wrote on 02/01 @371
Only Odin was no small trickster himself, more likely to win by deception and magic than by honest combat.

Ever hear the expression "All's fair in love and war"? (war => combat)

In any event, when you play with pigs, you're going to get dirty!

[Message edited on 02/01 @750]

Re: THE ANSWER
arenhaus \| 02/02/2004 @583 \| edit post

Yep.

The point is, you have to get your hands dirty in order to learn anything. So I see no harm in kicking people for not being skilled enough - if anything, it should give them an impetus.

So it's actually good that the inexperienced post here. You pay little for it - you get to see a poor image you'll forget in two seconds, if you don't stop to comment, but they could get a kick in the right direction that might be vital for them.

Skill can be grown, so "I am inexperienced" is no excuse. When you post, there are no visible means to see why you qualify to be given a slack. If I spot the tiniest speck of "admire me now for my coolness" without much concern for quality, I mark such case as target. Usually it means just a normal dose of vanity we all have, and one shove with the "culprit"'s nose right in the mistakes they make restores the artist to a more sober, self-critical attitude. The wonderful thing also is, if I am mistaken and the artist is already self-critical, it is not a shove, it's just taken as critique! Win-win scenario, with remarkably low count of offended personalities so far. Especially if you count as "win" those who got offended at first but actually asked why I made a list of flaws in their work, got an explanation and understood - without them, there are about two persons who remained offended so far, of all the people whose work I commented on. I'd say it's a fair result.

The point is, self-criticism is a vital resource for an artist. If you constantly kick yourself for something you haven't learnt yet, upon seeing someone do it with flair, you can hardly miss an opportunity to improve. Rest on the laurels, and you are a stagnant repellent bog.

But there are people who need a kick from outside to focus on improvement, and there are also ones who need a kick for making them believe they can do something great - unfortunately, too many high talents are in the latter category, suffering from too little self-esteem just like the others suffer from overblown ego. And if either kind posts here, I feel obliged to serve the stimulus.

I guess that the reprimands are more vocal than encouragements, but that's how it is. I've seen more than one case when I spotted some promise in an otherwise unskilled picture, wrote a whole essay for them, and observed everyone else hardly even looking at the picture still.

So give the newbie a hot welcome, whether it's an embrace or a kick, - both would work even if kicks serve more purposes - but don't ignore and don't try to shut them out, please. Keep the learning spirit of community up.

Re: THE ANSWER
gridlock \| 02/04/2004 @145 \| edit post

_quote:
arenhaus wrote on 02/02 @583
Yep.

The point is, you have to get your hands dirty in order to learn anything. So I see no harm in kicking people for not being skilled enough - if anything, it should give them an impetus. So it's actually good that the inexperienced post here. You pay little for it - you get to see a poor image you'll forget in two seconds, if you don't stop to comment, but they could get a kick in the right direction that might be vital for them.

Skill can be grown, so "I am inexperienced" is no excuse. When you post, there are no visible means to see why you qualify to be given a slack. If I spot the tiniest speck of "admire me now for my coolness" without much concern for quality, I mark such case as target. Usually it means just a normal dose of vanity we all have, and one shove with the "culprit"'s nose right in the mistakes they make restores the artist to a more sober, self-critical attitude. The wonderful thing also is, if I am mistaken and the artist is already self-critical, it is not a shove, it's just taken as critique! Win-win scenario, with remarkably low count of offended personalities so far. Especially if you count as "win" those who got offended at first but actually asked why I made a list of flaws in their work, got an explanation and understood - without them, there are about two persons who remained offended so far, of all the people whose work I commented on. I'd say it's a fair result.

The point is, self-criticism is a vital resource for an artist. If you constantly kick yourself for something you haven't learnt yet, upon seeing someone do it with flair, you can hardly miss an opportunity to improve. Rest on the laurels, and you are a stagnant repellent bog. But there are people who need a kick from outside to focus on improvement, and there are also ones who need a kick for making them believe they can do something great - unfortunately, too many high talents are in the latter category, suffering from too little self-esteem just like the others suffer from overblown ego. And if either kind posts here, I feel obliged to serve the stimulus. I guess that the reprimands are more vocal than encouragements, but that's how it is. I've seen more than one case when I spotted some promise in an otherwise unskilled picture, wrote a whole essay for them, and observed everyone else hardly even looking at the picture still.

So give the newbie a hot welcome, whether it's an embrace or a kick, - both would work even if kicks serve more purposes - but don't ignore and don't try to shut them out, please. Keep the learning spirit of community up.

Pandora's Box is dangerously close to being opened!

Hmmmmm.... kicks and shoves... a rather rough way of teaching people anything, or pointing someone the way... wouldn't you agree? There are less crude ways to point things out, especially in more civilized times (one hopes!) - - more often than not, a nudge will accomplish a lot more than a shove. Every schoolyard in the world has an older kid who kicks and shoves around younger, weaker kids around throwing his weight around (usually as a result of their own insecurities)- - - there's a word for them - its called "Bully". Once in a while, a bully will run into someone who'll stand up to him, and shove him straight back! Its an interesting situation when this happens!

There's nothing wrong with being arrogant - however, every action has a consequence, so if you're going to go around with that kind of an attitude, one fine day, when someone snaps back at you... be prepared to take the flak for it. It's amusing when one hears a lot about kicks and shoves on artwork in poor taste here... the same kickers and shovers seem to complain about their demeanour when its pointed out! Some might cite that if you can't the heat, then stay out the kitchen... bear in mind that when you come into the kitchen, you're not suppoed to be on the girdle, or in the oven! At the end of the day, its just your opinion on someone else's artwork - and we all know what they say about opinions.... eveybody's got one!

Its a community - - - you can be critical and be nice at the same time... and it really isn't that huge an art form.

Re: THE ANSWER
arenhaus \| 02/04/2004 @354 \| edit post

The difference between me and a bully, Gridlock, is that I am not a bully.

I do not shove people around for the kick of it, excuse the pun. I employ a whole range of "nudges", from encouragement down to arresting kick. You're welcome to do the same.

What gives me the "arrogance" to do it to others is that I do it to myself much harder than others can do it to me. My analytical skill does go further than my practical skill, admittedly. But I am experimenting and learning.

Of course, a "nudge" of any kind does not teach anyone anything. It is meant to compel people to teach themselves. Because teaching people is impossible - people either learn by themselves (which guidance and stimuli can enhance), or not at all. But too often they just need a shove in the right direction.

So practice some art, Gridlock, it's high time you learn to get along without the crutch of Poser. May I recommend Sheppard's "Drawing the Living Figure", "Virtual Pose 2" and Loomis's "Figure Drawing"?

_quote:
gridlock wrote on 02/04 @145
shove. Every schoolyard in the world has an older kid who kicks and shoves around younger, weaker kids around throwing his weight around (usually as a result of their own insecurities)- - - there's a word for them - its called "Bully". Once in a while, a bully will run into someone who'll stand up to him, and shove him straight back! Its an interesting situation when this happens!

/quote]

Re: THE ANSWER
amongfaeries \| 02/04/2004 @706 \| edit post

personally, i love it when people critique my work and when i see that i have a low average score on something but the 2 comments i do have are along the lines of "very nice" i get very dissapointed. i really enjoy when people like arenhaus take the time to critique my work so that i know what i'm doing wrong. i can get 5 million low scores and still not know why if people don't tell me. other people see what i don't see. i think that getting a little shove here and there in the right direction is nice. if people are the kind of arrogant people who think they are God, and in reality their work is horrid...well they deserve a kick. it isn't bullying...it's an in-your-face sort of teaching

Re: THE ANSWER
emarts \| 02/04/2004 @739 \| edit post

As far as I see it, you're gonna do your art your way and no amount of kicking and shoving will change that. You may accept criticism for a time (when you're new), but eventually you'll find your own way and be the artist YOU want to be.

The very nature of being an artist is the ability of standing up to criticism. If you have a low self-esteem -- no matter how good your talents really are -- you'll only be showing your art to yourself for fear that someone will criticize it.

I've read many of Arenhaus' critiques and, for the most part I think they're quite valid. If you don't like his "style" of critique, then you may find it hard to work as an artist. Especially as a commercial artist. One thing I've learned is: Don't fall in love with your own work. If you do, you'll never bring yourself to change what needs to be changed.

I don't think anyone was really suggesting that new artists not post. The only thing people want to see is the best efforts even if it's not that great. Doodles and snapshots are not best efforts. And it shows a lack of respect for those whom you are asking to critique your work.

Re: THE ANSWER
arenhaus \| 02/04/2004 @878 \| edit post

Right on emarts.

I just want to emphasize that while you indeed will develop your own way, it implies that you are indeed developing. If you sit all smug and in love with your great art, then the sooner you get a surprising kick, the better. The more smug you get, the more painful the realization is going to be, and the more time you'll spend doing vicious practices leading nowhere. :/

The only way out is humility, and constant vigilance, being your worst critic so you can learn from your mistakes and do not wince at others' critique, and sincere desire to improve. Then it will not feel like a kick, and I'll embrace you too.

And even if you do get smug on the way again - we all are human, aren't we? - then just a small nudge would be enough to straighten you on it.

Re: THE ANSWER
gridlock \| 02/05/2004 @200 \| edit post

arenhaus wrote on 02/04 @354
The difference between me and a bully, Gridlock, is that I am not a bully.

I do not shove people around for the kick of it, excuse the pun. I employ a whole range of "nudges", from encouragement down to arresting kick. You're welcome to do the same.

First up Arenhaus - I'd like to thank you for visiting Day of Deliverence and critiquing it... true its Poser... and I'll get more into detail on that.... However, I never explicitly called you or anyone else a bully - I drew an analogy which seems to have hit a pretty disturbing note among your chords.... this wasn't a personal attack against you but more at of what I've seen flying around in the forums off late. You've admitted that you've pushed and shoved, and I'll give you credit for that - a lesser individual would not own up to that - - - however, I'll refrain from using pushes and shoves, and stick to nudges. (This particular nudge seems to have brought out quite the effect though!)

Used at the right time, in the right manner, I seem to do quite well with them!

arenhaus wrote on 02/04 @354
What gives me the "arrogance" to do it to others is that I do it to myself much harder than others can do it to me. My analytical skill does go further than my practical skill, admittedly. But I am experimenting and learning.

Go easy on yourself - - - once again, a lesser individual would not admit his limitations in his current skills - - - but this is a learning process - - it doesn't happen in one day, or month or year - - - not unless you were born with the talent and skills that some of the others have. (Painfully enough, that's something that I wish I had myself!)

arenhaus wrote on 02/04 @354
So practice some art, Gridlock, it's high time you learn to get along without the crutch of Poser. May I recommend Sheppard's "Drawing the Living Figure", "Virtual Pose 2" and Loomis's "Figure Drawing"?

Suggestions gracefully accepted - - - once again, thanks for taking the time to critique "Day of Deliverance" (by the way - that was a constructive critique, as were your suggestions here... the tutorials - I've been working on them - watch for future posts - - - as for the crutch of Poser, well, I haven't used it in about 13 months - - - my last Poser piece was on 01/01/2003 - - - check out a few more recent posts of mine (specifically in the Digital Painting section) - - - I'm not totally dependent on Poser

though that was what first got me interested in all this sort of stuff- - - I'm still not anywhere as good as I hoped, but I'm making progress, even if I say so myself!

emarts wrote on 02/04 @739
I've read many of Arenhaus' critiques and, for the most part I think they're quite valid. If you don't like his "style" of critique, then you may find it hard to work as an artist. Especially as a commercial artist. One thing I've learned is: Don't fall in love with your own work. If you do, you'll never bring yourself to change what needs to be changed.

Point taken EMarts - - - and I agree, he has plenty of valid critiques.... most people don't take the time to critique... I just don't agree with the "Push, Kick and Shove" terminology - - - and I know I'll never be a commercial artist -

- never intended to be one - - - this for me is purely a hobby. The community offers me a means to observe techniques, and experiment with what I see.

arenhaus wrote on 02/04 @878
....The more smug you get, the more painful the realization is going to be, and the more time you'll spend doing vicious practices leading nowhere. :/

I know what's being implied here

.... I said this before and I''ll say it again - - - all's fair in love and war.

arenhaus wrote on 02/04 @878
......Then it will not feel like a kick, and I'll embrace you too. And even if you do get smug on the way again - we all are human, aren't we? - then just a small nudge would be enough to straighten you on it.

Point taken - - however, I still don't agree with the "Push and Shove" theory - but that's just me. A rose is a rose even by any other name - so is a kick! And kick me as you may, thats not going to change my perception on that! (pun intended) As for the embrace - Arenhaus - I don't have a problem with you or anything, but I'll pass on the embrace - - a handshake will do just fine!

No offence meant to anyone.

[Message edited on 02/05 @210]

Re: THE ANSWER
arenhaus \| 02/05/2004 @389 \| edit post

*shakes hand with Gridlock*

Re: THE ANSWER
RaZuZ \| 02/05/2004 @389 \| edit post

Hmm this discussion again. Slowly I get tired of this thread....

I think gfx should stop now to allow people join the community. Almost 19000 members is enough. The number of members should be reduced maybe to 2000. Only those with best skills and knowledge should be allowed.
No more critique is allowed. We all only praise each other. Critical people should be banned - with no discussion.

There is a possibility to join the community. The candidate must pay an entry-fee to each member. Then - after a year of ass-kissing all members and not posting anything (except glorifying comments), a committee will decide if the candidate may join.

Keep it up

Re: THE ANSWER
arenhaus \| 02/05/2004 @653 \| edit post

Very funny, Razuz.

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