That sounds totally awesome to me. I am seriously looking forward to all of those changes.

Quite a lot of work in front of you guys - thanks for all the efford.

I think it souns very promising, especially the new vote system. However, I wish the elite system wouldn't be thrown in the trash... It is a source of inspiration; something to struggle for: the elite status. I think it makes artists work harder to produce quality work. At least keep the top ten list?

sounds good, I'd vote for sharing the databases between photography and CG art, I would personally still be browsing some of photos too and I think many photographers would like to browse paintings as well.

There will be a top 10, it will be elite artworks instead of elite artists.

Also I think the database between digital art and photography should be shared, because many people are multi medium. Also the question of photomanipulation will that stay under the digital website or the Photography website, I hope under the digital GFXartist, because I dont think it belongs under photography, since most often they didnt take the stock pictures, that alone doesnt make it Photography. Just curious it wasnt mentioned what it would be placed under

Also, do you have a time frame? Or is this just an outline for things you will do when you have time? Will all these updates come all at once, or trickle in slowly?

May I just add that I think photographers can be painters as well, and vice versa. Hence, you should be able to maintain the same account in both communities - if not, I'm even afraid the photography community would soon fade and die. I elaborated on this in my post in the following thread:
A way of addressing the imbalance of arts on GFX

Thanks for taking time and looking into the issues.

Thanks for the indepth heads up. This was what I was hoping for, for the longest time.

I'm really happy with the notion that you will implement  arenhaus's idea of the 3 catagories of rating for each piece. Plus with the member appearing next to their vote/crits, it may finally eliminate the phatom 1pt voters some complain about.

My only question from this is, what will happen to the existing crits from already posted pieces? How will their comments/votes be affected when the new system takes affect? If the slate is wiped clean then we're looking at a possible tidal wave of 'reposts' .

As I follow the growth of several photographers here, (and have some photography work myself,) I don't mind if it's split or not...for that I'll just shift and adjust as necessary.

Again, thanks for the update, it's much appreciated.

I think an idea where as soon as you log in you are taken to your "home" this is like your mini home page within GFX. From here you can see any messages, new comments on your work, forum replys, new artworks form your favorites list and navigate to other areas of the site. Good to see GFX evolving.

Jane: extreme measures are necessary to drag GFXartist back on track. Although they may sound more extreme than they actually are. Toplists will still be accessible, but they will have a less prominent location.
Artists will still have monthly awards to strive for, although they will have a different context than the elite currently have and they won't be isolated from the crowd when they are awarded.

Crow, Inabottle, I agree on the shared database although its mostly the system load that will influence the final decision.

Wysiwyg: migrating from the current votesystem to the new one does indeed pose a conversion problem. Something we still have to figure out.

Juro: The monitoring section will indeed be such a place. Parts of it will probably also be available through a sidewindow for easy access. Although moving members to another page when they log in may cause some frustration is people log in when they're in the middle of something. Could be a valuable preference though.

Thanks for the kudos, feel free to hunt for pitfalls though

First....I do agree that popularity influences the voting system......I was disapointed to notice some beautiful works of another artist not receiving enough recognition.....so that is why My son Eremita and I started a thread about GREAT PHOTOS IN HIDING....Link...
Great Photos in Hiding!

I allways try to comment on all the photos....and the first thing I do is to forget who the author is!!!....I don't hesitate to give top marks to a work of an author I don't know....or even to artist who never comment on my works....because the important thing for me is the beauty of the photo...

As to make friends....I love my friends in GFX.!....to take away that will be forgeting a very important human side of the place....but even if a friend post a work that I think have some flaws....I say so......but I try allways not to be rude.
I can not help but to say some friendly words to the people I know....

About comenting.....I do think people has to comment other artist works....you just can not seat there...waiting for people to comment your works!!!....you have to go and comment at least the ones you like....

I totally agree that some excellent works go unnoticed...that is why my last two pictures were about a type of subject that does not get enough recognition....I did it,trying to increase the attention to this type of work....and to the artist who
do it.....My apologies is the quality of my 2 photos was not good enough.

As for the elite position....I am old enough and has gone through a lot of rewarding experiences in my life teaching Neonatology....that I wouldn't mind personally if it disappears.......but I think that the elite postion is very stimulating for the artist to produce more and to improve the quality of the works....so on that aspect I think that it should not dissapear....what it needs to be done....is to find a way to improve the voting system.....!!

As to my work....and as the last elite member elected...I can not help but to feel that many people think I don't have enough quality.......my apologies for that!!....I just do the best I can.!!!...I have done photography for more than 30 yeras...mostly black and white...not an excellent one....
I have worked with color only for 5 months...and I am still learning....and I am fully aware of my flaws....

I am sorry if my works or my opinions....or making friends....offended or disturbed the place.....I love Photography....and will keep posting if you think my works are good enough....

Carlos

Sounds good to me. And pretty much work

Id like to see one tiny feature - link on the banner on frontpage, (the gallery ad one) should take user to that picture. Or, you should map all image as it's now, and make signature (artowrk by....) linked to autor page.

One more thing - what about spamers sending in-systems messages with invitations to their galleries? I suppose, they're using some kind of scripts to automate sending messages (php, curl and some hours of work make wonders).

Ok, another one is about member list page. It doesn't have basic feature - SEARCH. If you want to find concrete person, you've to click, and click, and click... its frustrating... There's no need for advanced queries (mexican woman, age 20-26, having 3 painting, ranked above 300 points, having website and AIM etc etc). Little search by name or nick should help a lot!

btw. you've got bug in 'Edit comment' page. Check URL in hidden input GOTO - its like "http://.gfxartist.com" <- see that dot?

none: Good points. I also noticed the error you point out. *runs off to find Martijn

Great stuff guys

im definitely all for the changes! )

Sounds great, I am glad to see you 're improving the vote system!
Thanks for the update-keep up the good work!

one thing that im curious about, do memberships ever expire? such as, if someone hasnt been on in a year or 2? otherwise it would get cluttered?
what if, to become a member u have to submit a piece of art work, i think it might prevent cloning of the same members.
all in all, i think its great that u guys are gonna make a couple of changes.

Good job Martin! Thank you!

Although I can not tell what the site is going to be like, I do think splitting up the communities is bad. I can think of several other ways to take focus away from photography, and photographers will still be able to browse photos with the new suggested system. I've only posted photos myself, but I'm very interested in the other categories and thus think they should remain on the same site. Neither do I believe that photographers would gain much, as you say, from having their own site - I myself find it particularly nice when people who are NOT photographers comment on my work, because they're the ones that matters anyway, since they're the bigger group. Their opinions count, and should be there. I believe they will get lost if the community splits.


The elite system changes sound good, and so does the toplist browsing. However, neither complete randomness or top 10 is good enough; that's why I think it's so great that you're implementing both, and making viewers able to choose - flexibility is a good thing.

I appreciated most of the changes - thanks for always striving to make this site better.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing - the new voting system with 3 categories sounds great, but it will take longer to vote. I think this may decrease the number of total votes. I'm not sure, though. Just thinking.

I think you should be able to Comment and Vote In all 3 categories, all at once. Instead of having to go back and forth, I mean doing it seperately is no longer needed since you will be able to see the vote stats right? So perhaps streamline the system especially adding artwork, because I hate having to load the page 3 times to submit a new work, once for each thumbnail and one for the full version and another time for the description seems to be a bit much, couldnt we do this in perhaps 2 things submit all the images save and your description and then save. Just a question

The votes and comments will be combined in one review allowing you to rank the artwork in all categories and add a critique or comment at the same time.

Inabottle, the artwork submission could also be done in less steps. However when uploading several images, the chance of a timeout during high traffic hours is more likely. It's something we'll keep in mind.

I thank you so much for coming up with these changes and striving to help and build the community. Most of these changes (new voting system,etc) , I agree with, but I must include some of my sentiments. . .
First I'd like to say that, as a teen, it's been a beautiful opportunity for me to have found this site. No, my work isn't the greatest. In fact, it just may stink to high heaven. But the encouragement that I have received here and the inspiration that has come with it, well, it has been absolutely amazing.
My work may be progressing slowly, but at least it is. Not only this, but I've been posting both painting and photography. The friends I have met here, both photographers, painters, you name it.......have all been vital to my growth.
What will happen if there is a division between photography and the rest?
I agree with  Madanapale ,  Morre,  Crow, and  Inabottle. I don't think these categories should be seperated.......our growth depends on each other. At least some of us. . .
Anyways, thank you so much for your constant efforts of improvement.

Changes that were needed, I feel, although I'd ask you not to throw the baby out with the water!

Also - as a non-contributing member ( you really don't want to see what I do!) I hope my voice can still be heard.

I DO have an opinion, you know! Hard work by the sounds of it - good luck with it and I look forward to the results.

Simply great!
These measures are needed

I Agree with Madanapale

"the elite postion is very stimulating for the artist to produce more and to improve the quality of the works....so on that aspect I think that it should not dissapear....what it needs to be done....is to find a way to improve the voting system.....!!"

The elit is not perfect but I think it is what makes gfxartist to be gfxartist.. Taking that away you lose what makes gfxartist to be what it is..

You have something to look foward to when you try to get better in your own way.The problem with the *popularity* voitings can be salved with some moves..

There is a good site within photos http://www.dpchallenge.com who have inplanted this system you simply can not se who made the art before you have made a voit.. (That you can se after a while) so You don´t know who you put your points on.. And that makes it more focused at the art insted for the person.. (Ofcorse it hard to not se some artists styles) but it does take away some of the focus on the artist... and focus more on the art..
Take a look at the site ..

And abouth the photos.. just make another thumb line of art under the first one .. that takes the heat out of pushing paintings/drawings away from the front to fast... my 2 cents.. well just a suggestion..

Madanapale and Nenne's got a point, taking away the elite-ship is kinda harsh. alot of people work alot harder just trying to gain it. and voting for anonymous people, that way u'd even vote for you "enemies"/"friends" as the same. i dig that idea

I really like the idea of a 3-cat-voting system. this will finally save us all from giving and getting bad/good points just for the professional software and tools used.

I also agree with trebange: banning people who jsut comment and do not post something themselves would be bad. You can have an opinion even if you cannot "make it better yourself". It has probably just a different focus.

In general I agree, that the quality here should be wuite high, and that you shouldn't post everything and even get high votes for that. On the other hand, this discussion makes me not publish any drawings etc. myself, because I am afraid they would be not good enough. I am sure some more people think so, and that's not that great as well, since you cannot develop your skills without getting some good response.
Therefore I would imagine two main categories: artworks (as they are to be posted now) and drafts/experiments. In this second section you could post all those things you are not sure about and you'd like to get some comments help on. Not to float the sever totally, there could be a max time up for those try-outs as two weeks, or even one week.

just an idea.

Excellent ideas for changes.
Just two things: I do think taking away the Elite-status will do GFX' popularity more harm than good. Second, I really like what you want to do with the voting/critique system. Addition of blind-voting would make it all even more fair. And after you have voted, the creator of the art you voted on could be revealed to you.
Good luck with everything!

Well, it sounds like you are committed to the artwork getting the award...but you could still give a title based on an artist who accomplishs many 'elite' works.

Or go with my idea of elite status just for that catagory....so you have to drive yourself to master different catagories..and additional titles for multiple catagories conquered.

"In the new vote system, votes will carry a weight based on the artistic achievements of the member."

I'm not so sure if this is a good idea. There are people who are not great artists, but still know great art when they see it. I don't think I have much talent myself, but I think that I have been quite helpful in most of my comments and possess the qualifications to give a professional-level critique to an aspiring artist.

Also, splitting the database may cause me to leave this site. Sorry. I don't have time as it is to come here. I won't be able to visit two sites and I have no desire to have my photography in one place and my paintings in another, Plus, I won't pay for two subscriptions.

Sorry to put a damper on all the excitment of the new system. Many of the proposed changes actually sound great: the 3 categories, the monitoring ability and the renewed focus on the artwork instead of the artists.

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. GFXArist has been a real gem among other art sites. All it needs now is some polishing.

I'm sure of some elite will be happy to know that....I totaly agree with this decision...!!!GO GFX TEAM GO!!!

Although computer problems have kept me from participating ion the site for several weeks, my sadness at the recent runup in voting due to popularity rather than skill or originality also depressed me.

I am pleased to notice that I was not the only one who noticed. You have renewed my pleasure in being a member of the GFX community. When I judge work, be it art or photography, I try to vote for media I am familiar with.

My guidelines are first and foremost - Does the work show originality?
Second - Was it thought through in advance?
Third - Did the artist make an effort to creat the work?
Fourth - What skill level was used, and was it successful?
Fifth - What is the artist working towards - increased skill, new techniques, gaining confidence? Are they using the tools to close the goals.

A snapshot may be very pretty, but it doesn't get a vote from me. An art form I am not familiar with I won't vote on because I can't do it justice, not knowing the paramaters.

Sometimes I don't vote simply because under the current (popularity) system the artist has already gained so many votes I feel it isn't necessary. The artist is already a winner. (I already respect that persons art/knowledge). My limited time is better spent voting for the little guy.

I would hate to see the Elite go away (DAX - you've worked so hard to get there), but maybe GFX will find a better way. I'll wait and see what more knowledgable minds come up with.

Thanks again for putting into thought and words what I'd feared would drive a wedge between me and my beloved GFX.

Charly

To clarify things a bit, the elites will not go away but they will undergo some serious changes. Artists will still be able to get a mark of excellence, but the focus will be less on the person and more on the art.

Right now, having a lof of friends here is a huge advantage and will get you elite if you play your cards right. In the future such an award will be based on a more complex system.

On top of that, being elite has proven to be somewhat of a curse. Being an elite requires you to keep creating 'popular' art to keep from getting flamed. We want to go to a system with less pressure and obligations.

I agree.

I agree with all expecially with that 'The Elite System'
And when you are planing to do that all?

Leo

I must say that I am greatly disheartened by GFX's decision to divide photographers from the rest of the pack here.

As someone who is both a painter and a photographer (who also dabbles in photomanipulation), you're splitting my interests right down the middle.

I really disagree with the assertion that photography is the "black sheep" here at GFX. It is the most active area of this site, and I don't see how "giving photographers their own home" would be productive at all, as photographers do comment on work in other categories. Segregating photography is telling a large part of your userbase that they are no longer welcome here with the rest of the group.

Martin, I believe it was you who said in a forum discussion that photographers as a rule weren't qualified to comment on works in other categories and vice versa. I think that's an insult to many of the artists here, especially those who draw/paint/sculpt/model/design AND take photographs and do it all with competency. The visual sense that makes one a good painter can lend itself admirably well to photography, and the tools of composition a competent photographer uses to set up a good shot can be applied to commenting on artforms other than photography.

Dividing the user base of this site doesn't seem to be the most viable solution to me, and I believe that many of the problems here will be addressed with the other changes made. What about implementing these changes slowly to see where the root of the problem truly lies? It seems to me that most of the problems here stem from the Elite system and the current voting system, not from photography. Changing those two problematic areas might be all that is needed to improve the climate at GFX. Making a scapegoat out of photography and the many great photographers here alienates a large portion of your userbase.

If GFX does decide to follow through with all of these changes and it is decided that photography will have its own separate site, I'll have to part ways with this site. I have four member accounts on art sites not including my membership here, and adding yet another to that number doesn't interest me, especially for the reasons that would lead me to do so.

I've enjoyed my time here, but it seems that time is at an end.

radical but good!

martin: we have been talking about this a while ago-
did i have a lil influence?
*mean grin*

gogogogo!

Martin: " being elite has proven to be somewhat of a curse. Being an elite requires you to keep creating 'popular' art to keep from getting flamed. We want to go to a system with less pressure and obligations. "
Amen to that! I have found that my desire to experiment with different effects and styles on photos is always tempered by what a very vocal minority views as "elite quality" standards. I also think a new voting system where a name will be attached to a vote will be an improvement as it will eliminate the mystery voter who leaves no comments and votes a 0 or a 1 for whatever reason and remains anonymous. It may also help to mitigate the effects of the circle of friends voting pattern.

The separation of photography into a sight by itself is probably the way to go as it seems the photo section is being blamed for its own popularity and by inference many of the problems surfacing here recently. I must chuckle however because when I arrived here almost two years ago, photography was a very minor player and was undervalued in its importance and popularity and now seems to be a dominate part of the sight. I enjoy the drawing part of GFX and hope the data bases will be shared so that both sides can vote, comment, and continue using the same member names and accounts as now. I do believe that because most photographers mainly focus on that section and likewise the people who paint and draw focus on that section, it should not cause too much disruption especially if those who wish, can continue to visit both sights and vote and comment and yes, post works on each.

GFX has been an excellent learning experience and hopefully will continue to be so. It has also been a wonderful way to showcase artwork that we are proud of, and to meet and share ideas with many wonderful people!! I was fortunate to be here when the last major changes were done, and hope to be here to see the new changes take effect and hopefully solve some of the perceived problems and growing dissatisfaction with the current system.

Best wishes Martin and crew in your efforts to continuously improve the sight and to try to please a very diverse and talented community.

I think the changes spoken of so far can only be for the better, the popular vote does win through with the current system. Without naming any names sometimes I see artwork here that is bearly worth 50 points and yet manages to get 500. And adding names to voting is a great idea too.

As far as the Elite thing goes, I not really a big fan of putting status on art or members. If a member is voted Elite everything they produce is under close scutany from other members, and if it isn't up to scratch they get their ears chewed off. Not only that, there's no such thing as an Elite artist or person, we all learn new things with every new painting. Besides with the new system everyone has something to aim for rather than becoming an Elite member and not having anything to aim for.

As for the photography, this is a much better idea as when a great photo is posted on this site, and at the same time you have a fantastic painting, the photo will get missed by a majority of members. With this system people who are interested in looking a photos can go to the photography site without missing out on the good stuff because it's been pushed out of the new section by all the other sections posts.

Wow, this is great Martin! ^_^ Now we know what’s been talked about behind the scenes. I’m kind of sad though, about all the negative feedback- I think this is a good idea…..

Just one little question, you said: “The section will have a concept similar to the G-spot, rather than the current elite galleries”……………..so, will new Elite works come in a constant ‘dribble’ as they hit the stats requirement, or is it still going to be added in a lump after a given date each month?

We have two problems with the Elites at the moment, which I think people might be forgetting about. Yes, there is the point about the popularity votes. If people see their best friend and their enemy in the nominations, who do you think the majority will vote for, despite the quality of art? Of course it is mainly due to the popularity voting that is pushing some of these people into the Top 10 and the Elite system anyway….

Then, I think what people have forgotten about, is how trapped some Elites are, now that they are Elite. We’ve seen several cases where an Elite artist is bombarded with “This is not Elite quality!” whenever they experiment with their style or chosen subject matter, or when they expand their interests into a new medium. Unfortunately, the way things are set up now, it is demanded of the Elites that they produce consistent good work, which means that they can’t do what many artists should have the right to do- experiment.

Then there’s the photography section. Rgyoung, you said it yourself, “It is the most active area of this site”. That’s the problem. Photography, while a completely valid and wonderful artform, it is very dominant. We can see that just by looking on the front page. So very often there have been almost completely photos on every thumbnail on the front page, Elite Latest Additions, Member Latest Additions, Member Top #1 and Latest Elite Addition.

When I first came to this site, I thought its design was a little complex (like most art sites are). So I wasn’t going to dig in looking for the art I wanted. I didn’t know what the site had. What I saw on the main page had a huge impact on what I thought about the site. I saw wonderful, high quality paintings and illustrations. That’s what made me want to stay, and only that is what stopped me from wandering on to surfing other sites.
Now, what do you think visitors like me are going to think when they see a front page full of photography (a quarter of which are breaking the GFX Quality Guidelines due to complete lack of effort or care…). If GFX was like this, I more than likely would have kept searching, rather than spend my time here.

I like photography- I’m trying to learn photography myself. I’ve had a few photos in my gallery before, and I learnt what I needed to improve on. Instead of posting almost every ‘good’ photo I’ve taken since then, I continue to practice until I fix the issues that were pointed out with my first postings. Hopefully this way I won’t bore too many people with mildly competent photography. Photography is art! Be proud of it! Post your best.

I don't think the admin are casting the photographers away. I think this is a huge thing they're doing *for* the photographers. Think of all the work going into setting this up.........I think it will be great. And this is coming from someone who's wanting to have photos in her gallery, too.....

I’m not 100% sure what the guys have in mind (whether they’ve completely decided it yet either), but I’m sure they’ll work out something that works. Changes can only better things from where they are now. We haven’t got the full story yet- don’t worry until there’s something to worry about, okies peoples?

Sorry this is so longwinded. This is all the forum discussions I’ve missed recently bundled into one fair breath. Hope it helped some….
Thank you very much for posting this, Martin- it shows people that you guys are actually an active force.

I agree with Wysiwyg, Being an Elite just in the category you earned it is better, Then if you want to be an elite on drawing you have to work for it, Im member of others communities too, like shadowness and deviant, I've seen real great sites of photography like PHOTOSIG, but like someone said before in this forum, the Elite award is what makes GFX to be GFX, Elite award encourage people to keep active, and to work better and better. On the other changes I totally agree, Congratulations!

All the changes definitely seem for the best. I’m looking forward to it happening.

What if the Elite status were to become transient rather than disappear?

I mentioned this before in the forum. But now you've said what you are going to do I can visualise how it might work.

If you have a limited number of Elite spaces – say 20 or something – then using the new scoring system, an overall average score for an artists work can be calculated.

But rather than this being based on all artworks in an artists gallery, it would be calculated from artworks submitted during a certain time period – for example, artwork submitted in the past 2 months.

With this system, you would see who are the current highest rated active users (Elites).

I think this would address several issues, while maintaining the Elite category – something that is unique to GFX.

Those who achieve Elite status will have more reason to hang around – because they have to fight to keep it.

It would encourage people to keep improving – to get into the Elite area, and may discourage artists from submitting work that is below their usual standard, as this would affect their overall average.

To ensure an average is a fair representation of an artwork – only pieces that have had a certain number of votes (say 40 or something) would be included in this calculation.

I think a transient hierarchy such as this, along with a permanent award system like you are planning, would be an electric combination – making for a really exciting community with loads of healthy competition to drive artists.

Not sure how you feel about this – I know it would be complicated to implement, and can see some flaws, but I think it might work better than the current system.

It will be really interesting to see what comes about with the changes – I’m sure whatever you do it will only make a great site even better.

_quote:

---

 CityRose
Then there’s the photography section. Rgyoung, you said it yourself, “It is the most active area of this site”. That’s the problem. Photography, while a completely valid and wonderful artform, it is very dominant.

---

You missed my point about photography being the most active. Photographers are some of the most active commentors in all categories of this site. Separating them from the rest of the pack will be a detriment to those who wish to receive as much feedback as possible on their artwork. overhauling the front page to show more artwork would help balance things out between the categories.

_quote:

---

 CityRose
Now, what do you think visitors like me are going to think when they see a front page full of photography (a quarter of which are breaking the GFX Quality Guidelines due to complete lack of effort or car).

---

If the work is breaking the rules here, then a moderator needs to enforce them. You're actually making a case for increased moderation, not for photography to have its own separate site. Violations of the quality guidelines are a mark of the permissive/nonexistant moderation here.

As the site grows, the percentage of people who are less skilled will increase. As that number increases, the moderators will need to be more vigilant, or the staff size will need to increase. I'm a moderator on a non art forum, and I’ve seen the same trend there as here in terms of rules violations. The more popular an internet community is, the gre/q/quote]

If the work is breaking the rules here, then a moderator needs to enforce them. You're actually making a case for increased moderation, not for photography to have its own separate site. Violations of the quality guidelines are a mark of the permissive/nonexistant moderation here.

As the site grows, the percentage of people who are less skilled will increase. As that number increases, the moderators will need to be more vigilant, or the staff size will need to increase. I'm a moderator on a non art forum, and I’ve seen the same trend there as here in terms of rules violations. The more popular an internet community is, the gre/quote]

If the work is breaking the rules here, then a moderator needs to enforce them. You're actually making a case for increased moderation, not for photography to have its own separate site. Violations of the quality guidelines are a mark of the permissive/nonexistant moderation here.

As the site grows, the percentage of people who are less skilled will increase. As that number increases, the moderators will need to be more vigilant, or the staff size will need to increase. I'm a moderator on a non art forum, and I’ve seen the same trend there as here in terms of rules violations. The more popular an internet community is, the greater the chances are that the rules will be broken. The dip in quality is a symptom of popularity and an attendant lack of rule following.

_quote:

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 CityRose
I don't think the admin are casting the photographers away. I think this is a huge thing they're doing *for* the photographers.

---

I don't think I wrote or suggested that I felt that the photographers were being "cast away" with this decision. Photography has become a scapegoat for the problems here on GFX, and moving that "problem element" elsewhere seems to be the suggested solution for improving the quality of the artwork here.

For the most part, I applaud the other choices, and I wish GFX well in its endeavors. Something certainly needs to change, and I hope that this site's creators have found the magic recipe for improvement.
/quote]

I don't think I wrote or suggested that I felt that the photographers were being "cast away" with this decision. Photography has become a scapegoat for the problems here on GFX, and moving that "problem element" elsewhere seems to be the suggested solution for improving the quality of the artwork here.

For the most part, I applaud the other choices, and I wish GFX well in its endeavors. Something certainly needs to change, and I hope that this site's creators have found the magic recipe for improvement.
/quote]

I don't think I wrote or suggested that I felt that the photographers were being "cast away" with this decision. Photography has become a scapegoat for the problems here on GFX, and moving that "problem element" elsewhere seems to be the suggested solution for improving the quality of the artwork here.

For the most part, I applaud the other choices, and I wish GFX well in its endeavors. Something certainly needs to change, and I hope that this site's creators have found the magic recipe for improvement.
/quote]

I don't think I wrote or suggested that I felt that the photographers were being "cast away" with this decision. Photography has become a scapegoat for the problems here on GFX, and moving that "problem element" elsewhere seems to be the suggested solution for improving the quality of the artwork here.

For the most part, I applaud the other choices, and I wish GFX well in its endeavors. Something certainly needs to change, and I hope that this site's creators have found the magic recipe for improvement.

GFX just ruined my reply. Lovely

rgyoung777, as hard as it was for me to read you post, I completely agree with your observations. The quality problem here is mostly due to a lack of enforcement of the rules. And I agree a lot of screen space is wasted by news and ads. The big banner ad on the front page is too big and the news section takes up too much room.

I still don't think that the photographers are the problem. They may be very active, indeed, but their enthusiasm should not be bannished. What happened to the painters on this site? Have they gone elsewhere because the photographers are taking over? We nominate a new painter as well as a photographer each month. There are enough painters (elite and otherwise) to be sure of new artwork everyday. But they are not posting. Why? Where's Anry? Where's Enayla? Where's slipgatecentral? Where's Azhran? Where's GlassShard? Did these people go off and form their own site?

The problem is that once someone becomes elite, they leave. Remember how Anry flooded this site when he first joine?. He was voted elite almost immediately. Then soon after, we stopped hearing from him. This sit is a conquest. Once you've conquered, you move on.

Popularity is not a problem. Or at least, it's not going away. I'll probably recognize Madanapale's work and eremita's work and MsMichellLynne's work whether they sign the art or not. That goes for Kaduflyer, UrsalaV, kittyKat, sirgerg, SocarMyles, Nenne, and Artoonator. And besides, many of them post elsewhere so it's not hard to see who's who. People will become popular, face it. People will network, market and generally advertise that they have a new piece up, how is that wrong? If you don't do it and you get no votes, why cry foul because someone else did it? Besides, I personally want certain people to look at my artwork and I will notify them when I have a new piece up. No one has yet to complain. If someone comments on my work, why shouldn't I return the favor? This is a community right? If cliques form, what's the big deal? This isn't high school. Maybe we shouldn't be allowed to vote for people in our favorite artist list?

Stop awarding elite status and let the community evolve. I'd rather get rid of the elite status than lose the comradery. I enjoy coming to this site because of the people not the points.

Anyway, I'm probably wrong. Go about your business. There's nothing left to see here.

You are right Samson! The problem is when the rules work to the benefit of some, the others will complain. It is why I have no problem if the sight is split into two sights as it may at least eliminate one scapegoat, the photography section, and then the real causes of the problems, whatever they may be, will be more apparent. I must state however, that in my opinion, the elites produced by the current system deserve to be elites, as their works are of high caliber, and they were elected by the members, and so in my view vindicate the process that chose them. I also agree that more moderators and enforcing the rules may be the key point.

Interesting. I hope everything works out for the best. I would like the photography to still be a part of the main site. Hopefully there will be a way to help everyone appreciate it even though it can be produced much more quickly than some other types of art. Though I am nor a photographer I do understand that it takes time and effort to create and capture an good shot. That in and of itself should really be considered.

Also some people who spend hours on a piece can still have it turn out mediocre by the standards of another artist. It seems pretty subjective, and is a stucky situation to have to sort out. Sorry Martin. I hope you and the guys can figure it out in a way so that you don't have to separate the photographers from the rest of GFX.

Also I agree with the point that I would like the elite system to change, but I would like to still see the award given because it does drive me to try my hardest to make the best art i can. And what will happen to those who have won this status already? Will it be revoked and only their "elite quality" artworks get the award? I know everything is in the infant stages, but that Is something I am interested in watching how it gets resolved.

I personally would like the elite awards to continue, but like Martin said focuses more on the art. Like if someone is awarded enough of a number of "elite quality" pieces then they go up for becoming an elite artst. I don't know. I love this site, but I do have to say that I don't envy you guys for having to figure all this out. Because you know once the new system is implemented there will be praise and complaints no matter what happens. I will still be a member regardless.

I know that you really care about this site and the art and will do your best to make it work and remain a site that showcases the best in digital and traditional art.
Good luck!
Gianna

I didn't know there was a problem with the photography section, but then again I never post there. I do think photography is a wonderful form of art, and if they need their own site to celebrate it properly, then good.

And speaking as someone who's never gotten a pic in the top ten, and probably doesn't stand a chance in hell because I'm not "popular", it's nice to see the site step up and make big changes when needed, especially to the voting system and elite noms. I am a freelance artist, this is how I make my living. I know I don't suck, I have faith in myself. I also know I can improve by leaps and bounds. But when coming to GFX just makes me feel "unworthy" or "un-elite" (you know what I mean), then I'm gonna think twice about posting my pics here. I don't need to have my hand held as an artist, I WANT to improve, but I also want to feel valued as well. Just my personal opinion.

I think you guys have the balls to step up and do some great things here.

Move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for.

I agree with Samson completely. . . he sums up my thoughts beautifully. . .

Like most people, I'm also more than a little nervous about changes and more so with big changes. But as has been pointed out at various times over the period I've been with GFXA, trends, habits, attitudes and preferences have slowly evolved. Evolution however, isn't always perfect (look at the dinosaurs and Bill Clinton) and nervous or not, we should support and embrace such new ideals and future developments as those that you wish to adopt.

Where in my early days with GFXA (THE best GFX community on the web, I'll add) I occasionally had the yearn for gold... but after numerous comments, similar to '... once you hit Elite, you don't have to try anymore...', I thought twice about such aims (disregarding my actual ability to gain Elite status, LOL!). I've even seen comments (from artist's hanging around the the polling station for the nominations to come in) '...I really don't want gold - too much pressure to do really good work ALL the time, or you look like you're slacking...' In truth or not, both remarks are fully cogent with the nomination system as it stands.

Excellent work deserves excellence. I like the suggestion that the individual's top works should receive gold status, not the artist. This way the awards threshold is broadened dramatically and the successful artist doesn't feel the urgent need to be competing with himself aswell as the rest of the membership.

GFX Artist is a tremendous site with a fantastic staff and community, producing incredible works - this is why I originally signed on with this site and a combination this good can't go anywhere other than forwards and upwards!

Thanks GFXA!

Elite system:

The changes to that part of the site look promising, i agree that more emphasis should be put on the artwork than on the artist, because of reasons already noted(creative limitations, the vini vidi vici mentality). A combination of an improved voting system and a transient/temporary elite status would be great to see. i think wwe'd bring back elites that don't post as often, and see some fresh, different work from them.

Voting System:

"impressiveness" is too vague a category on which to base a critique on.
I could be impressed both by a Da Vinci sketh and a child's drawing.

A stronger substitute could be Concept; which is not the same as originality.
The category concept could encompass the artist's success at carrying the message of their work. Does the photo carry that ephemeral feel the artist was looking for, the harshness of a moment? Does the painting evoke emotion evoke emotion or passiveness? Is that logo succesful at manifesting the character and message it's trying to represent? etcetera, etcetera.

Forum Layout:

Sometimes comments, and responces to them, carry on for weeks, and consequently for MANY pages. It would be incredibly helpful to bypass the comments on that page that you don't want to read(such as a back and forth banter between two members) and combine these under a drop down menu or a link to another page from the original message that began that thread.
So there would then be the main thread of comments for the artwork, and any off topic tangents would have their own mini threads.
This would also free us from having to quote each other so damn much.
If i sound confusing i can point you to a site that has implimented this forum system.

Seperate Photography Section:

If what this commnity truely seek to achieve an environment in which artists can view, share and and learn from each other's art work then we must embrace the whole spectrum of materials that allow us to make our work. The work i do is hardly ever digital--i focus on collage, drawing and dabble in painting and photography. I know that my experience of learning from one craft and applying it to another is not unique; and that it's something that could greatly benefit any artist.
These "mediocre" photographers could learn a lot from the excellent composition i see in paintings on this site, and paintings could use a healthy dose of more interesting and diverse subject matter that the photos cover.

To leave on a positive note: BRAVO! i commend you on your wonderful site and all the steps you're taking to keep it great and make it better.

Oh, and to the comment on the advertisement and banners...

I think that's unavoidable. This is a huge site, funding has to come from somewhere

Just read all the ideas, and first I'd like to say: I have complete confidence in your competence. As a team you have proven that you are able to build a community that I consider as the best, but most of all, clearest one on the web.

That's why I hope that the good things won't get damaged by the changes you will make. For instance, the things I like now are:
-Good visibillity of new posts.
-Clear system, I know exactly where to go to find the type of art I'm interested in.
-Neutral color blue/gray that makes the images pop out.
-Clear personal galleries
-Easy to find specific types of artists

Goodluck on the job!

Thanks for your feedback. Especially to those who've given their opinion on the photography front.

Giving photography a home of its own is a big, if not risky, step. Obviously we'll make the essential modifications first and observe their effect before we turn to more drastic solutions.

There are artists here who master a range of skills. There are however even more artists who master a few skills, but feel the need to participate in other categories. While their amateuristic attempts are loved by some they are rejected by others.

Also 90% of the comments on photos are hardly on par and many of the votes also seem misplaced. As some members have already pointed out by posting a rather mediocre work with a cute subject, after which they got an amount of votes other skilled but less popular photographers could only dream of.

I think Photography needs space to mature and take on a more serious form. I don't want to offend anyone, but when it comes to cliques and votegroups photography is no.1. I've never suspended as many accounts as I have suspended due to photography related issues.

Now I'm not saying photographers aren't supposed to be here. Hell, we even modified the galleries to make space for photography and photo manipulation. The question is simply, is photography too dominant to occupy the same space as painting and illustration? If it is, we'll have to side with our original targetgroup, the painters and illustrations and find a suitable solution.

To wrap it up, our plans are at a very early stage. We'll proceed gently and do our best to please all initially. (impossible, but you get my drift)

I love the friendship on this site, because the ones I've made friends with have helped me improve as a photographer - if not for them, I'd probably have quit taking photos long ago. Many, if not most, of these friends are not photographers, but they're opinions are still relevant. Please don't make me lose this.

And the photography is very serious, I think. While most everything you say is great, Martin, I have to disagree with you on this one:

_quote:

---

Also 90% of the comments on photos are hardly on par and many of the votes also seem misplaced. As some members have already pointed out by posting a rather mediocre work with a cute subject, after which they got an amount of votes other skilled but less popular photographers could only dream of.

---

I hardly think this is the case, and anyway, people's votes have to count. An artistic value is not a value at all if ONLY the so called "experts" appreciate it. Your 30000 members are this site; not the elites and elite nominees. (No offense intended.)/quote]

I hardly think this is the case, and anyway, people's votes have to count. An artistic value is not a value at all if ONLY the so called "experts" appreciate it. Your 30000 members are this site; not the elites and elite nominees. (No offense intended.)

I didn't type it twice, it's some bug. Sorry.

To create and Award (Elite) and then remove it.....sends a great message of inconsistency!!!!!....

who says that the new kind of award won't be removed when another people complains....

you will allways have people that is not happy with a system.....

Popularity fades away.!!!....Eventually quality and content will prevail!!!!

Carlos

I have to be honest, I dont mind if Elite Award is eliminated, but I have to agree with Madanapale that Creating and award and the remove it, is a great message of inconsistency, but seriously I dont mind to lost my golden icon, as matter of fact, I dont think the golden icon makes you a better artist, you can clearly see how after most of the Elites won their award, most of them, disapeer from the site or decrease on posting, or decrease their quality, why? maybe because they think that now they dont have to effort themselves to improve, I can clearly point active elites with my hand and feet toes , where have all the other 80 elites gone? That clearly says that If there is going to be future elite nominations, those Elite winners have to be commited with this site to improve the quality of the site and professional behaviour.
But Elite Subject is not the main subject here!
Photography I think it is......... Well, Just do a test, move the photo section to a separate site and you will see how the comments decrease.... Photographers can aprecciatte other type of art because that's their work, To see and capture Art that is front of their eyes, Photography will be allways a very active category.
I've been doing a lot of drawing lately, but I dont post anything of that because I cant compare my drawings to Grafiker, Artoonator, etc, etc..... why? Because Im starting to master drawing, so the most clever thing to do, is that Elites only be Elites in one category not in all categories, I want to compite in the drawing category, I want to work hard for this site too.... So please hear me, and do Elite changes, Elite only in one category, Elites that want to be Elite in the other must win the Elite award in the other categories.
Sorry About my bad English

While seperating photography remains an issue to be discussed among the admins, the Elite system cleary needs to change since it's part of the problem we're trying to solve.

We understand that the Elite concept is very appealing and has become an important part of GFXartist. Structurally however the current system promotes cliques and awards popularity rather than skill and creativity.

What we will work towards is a system which will award artists for their art, rather than award the artist with the most fans. Which shape this new system will eventually have is something we're working on.

I remember the apprehension when major changes were implemented a year and a half ago and things worked out fine. I expect the same will occur with these changes and just urge everyone to not jump to conclusions and to let Martin and company work on some needed improvements. The sight is one of the best online and I expect it will remain so and wish the team the best in coming up with some solutions!

 Nenne very very cool for an example -

_quote:

---

There is a good site within photos http://www.dpchallenge.com who have implanted this system you simply can not se who made the art before you have made a vote.. (That you can se after a while) so You don't know who you put your points on.. And that makes it more focused at the art instead for the person.. (Of coarse it hard to not se some artists styles) but it does take away some of the focus on the artist... and focus more on the art..
Take a look at the site ..

---

/quote]

Yes, but that won't stop people putting their name on their actual work, in which case such a system is useless.

true true didnt think about that

and also ... people could very easily PM their friends letting them know they are posting a photo and telling them its title. It is too easy to get around a blind voting system for those who desire to.

all these sound like great moves for the site, good luck to the admins on the execution of this new version

I just read the news and I agree and support GFX changes!!!
NOW: I think it would be nice is you open more categories in the photography galleries... like... let´s say: amateur, photo jurnalism, photos with ecologic and social content. I also believe that when we become members you shoul haave a kind of questionaire for us to get clear where we bwlong into the site!! Like expirience, studies, etc.... Good luck and thanks for your efforts!!!

The changes sound good. I hope they cause people to only submit thier best works not just their most recent.

Juro: Kitty cat: ofcorse every system got there flavs.. there is no safe system.

Thruth is that the system DPchallanges got workes and have worked for qvite a while. Al I did say was look at it and maybee get a good ide or 2 from it.

u should remove voting system totally i think..even site doesnt have any contests this voting system creates a contest feeling in members and they care too much about votes...
or if voting system will stay at least ppl who vote should HAVE TO write a critique..it should be essential i think..

If you force people to add a comment all it will do is generate more "nice work" type comments. How can you remove the voting when without it all artworks will come and go as fast as they are posted? Doesn't the voting system allow good works to be on view for a longer period of time?

I can live with most things, But have reservations about splitting Photography from the rest...

What about the people who post both !

PhotoSIG has interesting system for critiques. Maybe part of it would be considered for implementation into GFXartist as well.

First: Votes are conected with critiques. PhotoSIG implemented algoritm that is checking wheter critiques are conforming or not. Althought it's only stupid robot, at least length and some verbal aspects of critique are checked.

Second: Rating the critiques. Other members can mark out if critique was helpful or not. Then it will easy to find out even controversial critiques, such as friendly votes, revenges etc.

All the ideas sound good. With a bit of tweaking they should make this site - and its proposed sister site - the best on the web. I welcome the idea of splitting photo from art; I post both but think a completely new site would benefit photography as it could be completely dedicated and also attract more "pure" photography members. I just hope everyone from the photography section makes the move across.

Regarding comments - I suggest that comments are only forced for low votes. What ThruMyEyez says is true, it will not improve the quality. Instead, why not just have them for votes of 4 or less (or whatever counts for low in the new scheme of things). However, I'd still like to see names against all votes. Can't think why, I just would.

And proper organised contests - bring em on

Awesome! I am so happy! Looks like a great plan.

I have been a fool not noticing this thread for quite some time.
But at least I finally did read this.
These are just some thoughts in my head.

I agree with Madanapale, Eremita, Wysiwyg, and Windandfire.
For me, the Elite is what makes GFX a GFX.

Elite artists inspire me to do more and more.
To be the best.
I have never vote someone to be an elite just because popularity.
I voted an artist to be an elite based on their works and their quality of works.
I have never catogerize "enemies" or "friends" on voting.
My vote is all about the quality, the creativity, the beauty, and the most important thing is the passion.
There are a lot of artists here are very very passionate about making art, but many of them never even been seen.
I try almost everytime I logged in to view every new ones, photography, paintings, designs, drawings....
And I try to be always fair and supportive,
because I think we should supports our fellow artists to improve more their works.
Here I agree with Madanapale and Eremita, there are too many unnoticed artworks.
Too many of them untouched by comments and critiques.
Funny, and ironic it is that IT IS THE COMMENT and critiques that we needed to improve more besides Elite artworks.

I grow so much within this community.
I grow with all the elites I have seen, with all the comments and critiques.
It's just a pitty if you eliminate the Elite system.

About viewing the name of the voter, I agree with that.
We'll finally know who's this crazy dude!!!

I also agree with e-marts about the whole removing photography thing from GFX. And also rgyoung77.
quote rgyoung77:
" You missed my point about photography being the most active. Photographers are some of the most active commentors in all categories of this site. Separating them from the rest of the pack will be a detriment to those who wish to receive as much feedback as possible on their artwork."

quote e-marts:
" I still don't think that the photographers are the problem. They may be very active, indeed, but their enthusiasm should not be bannished. What happened to the painters on this site? Have they gone elsewhere because the photographers are taking over? We nominate a new painter as well as a photographer each month. There are enough painters (elite and otherwise) to be sure of new artwork everyday. But they are not posting. Why? Where's Anry? Where's Enayla? Where's slipgatecentral? Where's Azhran? Where's GlassShard? Did these people go off and form their own site?"

I am totally with Madanapale about IMPROVING THE VOTE SYSTEM, and not destroying Elite system.
quote Madanapale :
"the elite postion is very stimulating for the artist to produce more and to improve the quality of the works....so on that aspect I think that it should not dissapear....what it needs to be done....is to find a way to improve the voting system.....!!"

But at the end, e-marts is the inspirational speaker about all of these.
At the end I agree with him. You can not avoid the popularity effect, It is very natural. I just want people to more aware of the newbies, the hidden artists with wonderful talents.
And if you HAVE TO GET RID the Elite system, so be it.
I agree with e-marts that I myslef prefer to get rid of the elite status than lose the comradery.
I ENJOY COMING HERE IS BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE NOT THE POINTS!!!

least I just wanna say like Morre did, it is because of friendship on this site have helped me improve as a photographer
if not for them, I'd probably have quit taking photos long ago.
Many, if not most, of these friends are not photographers,
but they're opinions are still relevant.

Please don't make me lose this.

Fretty

about the inconsistency that eremita and Madanapale have spoken before, I totally agree with tat!

I'm happy with the new plan & upcoming changes... This is gonna be nice!

I believe that any new system wil have it's faults and weaknesses which will be discovered down the road as we work into the new GFX. We are dealing with people here ... people who are not perfect. We will never be able to remove the people factor from this site. I commend the administration for making the effort to examine the present structure and to consider changes. These changes will be a positive for some and a negative for others. The old cliche ... "you can please some of the people". I honestly do not feel that changing the voting structure and the elite system will reduce the popularity aspect of this site. People will have their favorite artists and will often vote based on the artist whether it is a single vote of three seperate votes. Many of the popularity voters have no qualms about writing "top marks" or "10/10" as it is so I don't think that adding our names to our critiques will have a great impact except in ridding the site of phantom voters.
Concerng the elite system ... I agree that it is a unique aspect of GFX and I also feel that regardless of popular voting ... the people who have achieved that status have done so ultimately because they consistantly produce high quality work. Their artwork is what made them popular here in the first place.
Let's make sure that we are not creating more problems than we are solving in improving our little home on the internet.

wow
... i am just back from a month of enforced gfx-abstinence (another tough round of exams) and quite impressed with things to come! technically i agree with that plans ... artwork should weight more than the popularity. i am, though, a bit saddened that photography will have to be moved out of the way to ensure it doesn't take over the whole community.
i understand it (the whole "spamming" issue is quite clear to me), but it's sad nonetheless .. one can't just divide it from other forms of creative expressions
at least keep the chat, forums and database together ?

whatever you decide, thank you for investing to much time in this project!
you guys are fine people ... *hugs*

GREAT but does it REALLY change something?

When the best artworks which get picked still are those which got a high ranking nothing about the popularity problem actually changes....

I'm also thinking about the people who worked so hard to get elitestatus finally (Dax for instance) and now haven't much outta it.

The G-Spot (kinda) system still bases on POPULARITY so were is the real change?
It's still the SAME system just with slightly bit changes...

When I arrived on GFX some two years ago, it was the most brilliant digital art community on the web, small but impressive; the vote system was simple but the elite nomination procedure was way more harsh then (no categories, 2 names to pick up out of a list of 30 names, anyone remembers ?), yet it produced most of the greatest elite members on this site (Azharn, Anry, Enayla, Antifan, Vacher, NoahHK etc.); actually, the "elite" thing was really meaningful. Then , there were some changes in the vote system, the creation of categories for elite nomination and things never stopped going downhill. Today, I hardly recognize GFX when i see all those snapshots in both galleries. And if I were a great painter, I'm not sure I would keep on posting my work on a site that obviously attracts another kind of audience, artists and potential clients (maybe that's why some of the missed elite painters here are still posting their work on cgtalk although they already got their awards overthere too).

so, just an idea, why not going back to ol'time GFX system
(wouldn't change much infortunately, "eliteness" is now totally ruined, I'm affraid )

I think it's more the thing that GFX became very big recently. This also means that more people which aren't that skilled arrive automaticly.

But I really PREFER an suggestion I read here before: When elite members get voted for a special category, why shouldn't they be then elitemembers for this category only?

I think this idea is GREAT!
(Because it gives more quality to the other areas back again.)

 reilanchan: The plan is to keep some kind of award, so if someone is has a really good work, the member will become "elite", and the artwork will be moved to the elite gallery. (Member get's an award ie: Most skilled 3d-artist of april 2005)

But: new works will not go to the elite-gallery like now. This way we wan't to give the elites something to go for. They can explore new categories, post doodles without all of their work having to be top-noch-elite-quallity all the time.

Hm I don't think thatone artwork should decide about the elitestaus. Then it's even more easier to do some politicking just to become elite.

-The current elite system has the following advantage:

The fact if you finally get voted as an elite isn't 100% a fan thing because the users can't monitor the voting behaviour on the elitevoting. Otherwise some certain people around here would already bee elite members...

Besides that there are 2 other things I'd like to know:

- Aren't you afraid that many good members will stop posting when there isn't the thing on which the site is based on for many around here anymore? (a thing that is going on with the galleries right now. I never saw there such less traffic as right now...)

- What will happen to the current elite awarded artists when the new system is applied?

All I have to say was that I would truly like photography to be left where it is, even though I barely know how to work a camera.

I think photographers are not wanted here at GFX, maybe I will start looking another site to post my photos.... This is a site for Digital Art..... Photography is more like a classic expression so.... Good Bye GFX...... Maybe I will come back again when all the changes be made, but from now on I will try not to interfeer on the "Real Elites" Posting..... I think that recently Elites like I are not so welcome..... I will try to keep a low profile, maybe only critiques and comments on photography section, so I will not so much around from now on... I hope everything gets well soon... because GFX its a great site....

one question... someone mentioned that u have to critisize everytime u had to vote. u would loose more votes that way. i love voting/looking at members art while im busy at work. but i dont have time to critisize on each and every one of them. im sure there are people on this site who also check out this page while at work.

No .. eremita i think the photographers is a part of the digial arts ...

I've been vague in my descriptions of the changes to say the least. Mainly because we've only just established the key areas that need to be affected in order to get the site back on track.

The main goal of these changes is to stop encouraging the lobbying, clique-forming and asskissing. Lately a lot of drama has been involved in the dynamics of GFXartist and when we took a moment to analyse it, all we could say is 'that makes sense,... we build it to do that'.

With the growth of the community and the constant infusion of new members, the weak points of the system have become more obvious. Besides some of the comments, nothing here pushes people to improve. The top 10's only highlight the most popular work, letting other great art go unnoticed. The elites are like hollywood moviestars (being in the spotlight really takes off the edge) and yet, non-elites will do anything to become one. Hence, we've got vote groups and crowdpleasers and the worst thing of all is that it works. Members are too often rewarded solely for their effort, and doing that pays off.

Many of the changes will modify the context rather than the underlying dynamics. In essence we'll still have votes, comments, elite galleries and elite nominations. However there will be some heavy restructuring and reprioritizing. The most radical changes will take place at the bottom of the chain. Votes and comments will be combined to create the context of a review, which in turn will be weighted, so the influence of the review depends on who's 'talking'. The access to the artwork will also be restructured. Instead of providing easy access to already highly rated work, the focus will be more on recently added work. While we will still create a seperate place for 'elite' work, it will be no longer the case that the artist has exclusive rights to post there.

Reilenchan's remarks about the old elite system make sense if the community wasn't as big as it is now. Back then, the members were more close and more quickly agreed that one deserved the status of elite. Now, with so many members and different tastes, it has become a different game. Still a game worth playing, but not with the rewards we're give out right now.

Why we are considering to create a new site for photography is an identity issue. As we've said before, photography is becoming quite dominant and regardless of the opinions of the members, we have to ask ourselves if we want this for GFXartist. The future worries us more than the now. While all is well, we can't have painters and illustrators leave while photographers keep flowing in.

I have had several reasons to improve - the friends I have made, to be more precise. Many of them I would never have gotten to know if the photography part was separate from the rest; and anyway, 5 categories versus 1? Photography might fade away entirely form GFXartist. Is this what you want? I would guess not, since many of your members ARE interested in photography, and since this is a good photography site.

EDIT: I don't want to sound too harsh, here, but... "Regardless of the opinions of the members?" What made this site so great is that you took the member's opinions into consideration, and I think you have to remain on that track if you want to keep being able to consider yourselves the best graphics site on the Internet.

Well, GFXArtist is a mirror of the word like it is outside. Life isn't always fair but the main point is:

As long as we have a voting system nothing about the popularity problem will change. (But without rating the site would become somewhat boring...)

So all you can do is monitore the cliques and do something against them if you want this site to be fair...

Taintra: voting and commenting is still optional, you can do either one or both, but they will still be displayed next to your name in the list of 'comments'. The new layout will of course motivate people to explain their rating (be it in the form of critique or praise).

Morre, a valid point, however I worry if we can give the photographers what they deserve if we keep them tucked away in these galleries. Regardless of the friendships that have formed, we definately have to consider wether GFXartist can accomodate both crafts without continuously making compromises. If we continue to make things fit, we may end up losing both crowds to sites that specifically target respectively painters and photographers.

I am definately for two seperate sites, if we can have a shared member base. It will allow us to target crafts more spefically while maintaining a diverse community.

so PHOTOGRAPHY is gonna be OUT OF the GFX classroom?

eowyn, I can't really answer that yet since it's just as controversial behind the scenes as here. We will however figure out how we can create space for us to grow without having artforms battle for domination.

However this turns out, I'm glad it's being worked on and discussed. One thing that drives me nuts is the sheer amount of work that gets published between my visits.

I used to get on regularly here, but it was impossible to keep up with all of the member works being published. I'd go to sleep, wake up, and have to browse from 8-13 pages into the member art section to catch up. I'm guessing this ties in with "what is quality" discussions that have being going around too. A lot of these artworks are not ready to be uploaded, and because of that the truly finished works are lost amongst the clutter.

Why not have a collective Elite Art (not artIST) gallery, that displays works that have over X amount of votes in X amount of time?(or however the new system will work). That doesn't mean the artist gets gold lettering on their name or anything. It just means, at the most, that their profile gets a symbol of some sort letting people know that at least some art in their gallery is listed in the Elite Artwork section. There's no priority seating arrangments, no pressure to make something Elite. Just whatever is voted or agreed on is good, and now everyone's on a level plane.

~Cirdan

I've noticed gfxartist's photographic inundation over the past few months. I've seen elite row filled with 8/9 photographs on several occasions, not all of which could be described as elite. Elected photographers have proven that they know what they're doing, though it seems at times they just... don't. People with whom I have discussed this matter agree that there is a definite attention to quantity, so much so that quality is being overlooked.

I was among the group of people originally suggesting photographic reform, but even I feel that the action in question is too drastic. I have come up with an idea, which I hope may be considered as alternate option for dealing with the situation.

I would like to propose submission limitations. Photographers submit, say, 4 times more frequently than painters. Apply a submission limitation to photographers such that painters and photographers are able to provide work at the same rate. This would solve the influx of photography, and force a quantity oriented perspective by making photographers select the best one of every four photographs.

To plug numbers into this plan, we could make a survey over the period of two months. This survey would compare the submission frequency of a large sampling of photographers and painters, and ascertain the average ratio of photo: painting submissions into the gallery. Given this figure, it would not be hard to apply the aforementioned limitation.
This plan would take some doing, but it is far more gentle approach than total isolation. The isolation approach is predicated on the assumption that photography and illustration are different to the point that they should not be mixed. I disagree with this, and would like to point out that they operate on similar principles of composition, color and creativity. I consider myself a painter, yet I often enjoy beholding and critiquing the bold, realistic elements presented in photography.

I understand that photography would simply be isolated, but that’s not something I think we need to do when we can simply tweak the existing system. The two media have the potential to play off of each other well, if simply kept in proportion. To attain a harmony between them would represent a great victory.

(enough on photography, on to elites)

I would be dismayed to see the elite system done away with, as it is (in my opinion) gfxartist’s most unique characteristic. I understand and agree with your claim that it transfers attention from the artwork to the artist – all too much like another community I know of &#61514;. You’ve done great things so far, and I trust your judgment in moving into future iterations of the gfxartist system.

Maby it was mantioned but..

I would like to ask what will happen with artworks which we have now ? they have votes. I mean, when the new voting system will appear the votes on old works will be deleted, or what?

I have a question so this month there will be NO nominating for elite?
and what will happen to the already elites they will have their gold icons removed?
also I just found this link pic of the day archive  has it always been there?
http://www.gfxartist.com/general/archive
almost all the work there is from 2004
and btw seen the new book mark feature I think that's kinda cool too

I like the site just the way it is. I like the voting system. No mater how complex you make it, the good artists will always rise to the top. I also don't understand why people are so against photography with the new gallary setup. It's so easy to filter it out. Oh well, you can't please everyone.

Hey, can we have a vote about changing the site? Like a poll?

Commenting on Bougal´s suggestions: There was talk some months ago about creating a private gallery for each member, and those pieces would not appear in the public member gallery, but only in each artist´s pages ( I don´t know if this feature is already present for subcribed members though). So I think it would be enough with enforcing a rule (or making it automated) of not posting more than one artwork per week *in the public gallery*, and let people post all they wanted in their own private galleries. That way the clogging of the gallery would be alleviated. I even think that posting one piece per week, period, will make these fast producing artist to post only their very very best work. What do you people think?

Personally I've grown tired of this discussion...

I just dropped in to be the 100th commentator

ok I am 101! Ohhh ya!

wow. I thought that such drastic changes would frighten and upset people, but it sounds like almost everyone is pretty into it.

I am fully behind the GFX team and whatever choices they make. I believe that all the changes they are making are for the betterment of our site. This is coming from a person whose gallery is made mostly of photos right now too. This change will effect "the big guys" too after all,  Arno and  Martijn both have galleries full of photos. I am anxious to see how this turns out. Good luck guys.

Augustopatino's suggestion is excellent, and goes along what I had in mind. However, I might go as far as to make it two weeks.

ok but... when out?

what a thread!


On the elite issue...I think I have to agree with the individuals that have mentioned the elite system is one of the things that made GFX unique. It was what made me want to post again and again here FIRST above the other forums. It was a goal and I was motivated to create new artwork to continue the momentum I had with my work. Sure, there is going to be some issues with popularity voting but, I don't know of one art contest that doesn't have that as a component.
I've been entering shows from the "Society of Illutsrators" to Spectrum to Expose' and they all have that element. A popular artist will sometime get into a juried show simply because the jury recognizes the artists style. However, at the end of the day, those annuals have stood the test of time and 90% of the time the good work gets in. I would say that is true here at GFX as well, most of the artists I see that are voted into Elite status are darn good artists...and they do through consistancy and that is something that is measurable in the real world of the art industry. I've survived in my industry not becuase I'm necessarily the best artist out there but I am consistant and can deliver a quality product most of the time.
I can understand the reason why you guys want to do away with the elite system and I certainly don't know all of the specific challenges the site has experienced on this issue, however this is an aspect of the site I will miss. ...and I am the nostalgic type. Regardless I will still post here.

Best,

Phil

Sounds great! I'm excited about the changes...

To wrap things up a bit: thank you all for your feedback. Although we are convinced that GFXartist would benefit from some drastic changes, we do understand that a carefull approach is required when it comes to certain issues.

I will definately continue my discussions with Martijn to make sure we don't change the system for the worse.

if all this goes in the well direction , it will be great

and REASY for CONTEST^^

Sorry to continue the discussion... but what if the Elite system became tiered?

What I mean is, you could have several stages of member/elite status that would be based on the overall achievements of the individual artist (within GFX). This could work well in conjunction with the proposed awards system.

The higher the level, the more time and effort would be required to attain it. That way artists would be encouraged to stick around and keep posting art. Rather than just making Elite, then getting bored and moving on.

I agree with wysiwyg this is going on and on..

So can I make one suggestion !

Can I be President of GFXartist.com and affiliated web sites?

obivously you guys have spent a lot of time thinking about how your site is growing, and i couldn't agree more with both your view of the issues and idea's to fix them

sooooo... now, i guess i just wait for them to go live....

Hi
Nice with changes
Nice that the elite gallery will transform to be based on the art pieces.
The ones that are good and have their art there probably get their art back in some sunny spot if their images deserve it ;and they shouldn't be afraid of the change.
I think it's a really good idea to let it be based on the images and not connect it to the artists.
Cause there is art amongst the members galleries that are awesome.
And not every elite submission is the best of what that artist can make.
And if one want to stretch to a higher level you need to have that goal on each
level.

So I think those ideas are really good .
And when they leave the drawingboard they probably are more refined.
And will work out for the best.

§=0)
TinCat

maybe you should look at garageband.com and how there post after so many critiques system runs...reward people for better critiques and so forth

LOVE YOU ALL
I especially like the new 3 part voting system.
The new award system sound something like Epilogues Editors pick or Cgchannels awards for paintings. Kind of cool. But i love Elites, it was
the main reason i joined.. to have a goal and to find inspiration to become a better artist..

Anyhow. Sounds great!