Why not just combine them? Have a drop down box for "score" then maybe a line-break and under neither have the drop-down boxes for "Concept," "Technical Skill" and "Impact / Impression"

Then have the box for "Comments," and then the under that the "Pros" and "Cons" boxes (the "Overall opinion + feedback" box wouldn't be necessary, because it'd be redundant).

That way if people feel like being more specific they can. I don't really think the "Review" tab being behind the "Comment" tab is what's making people not use it. It's laziness. If everything were on the same page people could decide how in-depth to get on the fly.

although I'd love to see the review function used more, I think it would bring some frustration to the users used to how it is right now...
a complete unpdate to the site would be extremely appreciated though. Though I know it's not immediately possible, I wish it were.

Byonder has it! that'd be a great idea!

something like that: http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m55/JordanRoots/layout.jpg
I'd also prefer that colorscheme, though it's only my tastes.

Because this is an easy tweak....you are talking about reworking the entire structure, rather than switching which tab shows up on top.

This isn't guaranteed, however as it's a minor adjustment I'm going to try and convince Martijn to do it if the public decides to.

I'm talking about working with what we got for now, there is no way I will get the support I need for such modifications.

--------

C'mon guys small steps...

no one ever uses the review box
its there people see it..
it takes way to much time.
I say it goes.

I was thinking of something along these lines. Reviews and comments would show up in the same window, and if nothing is written in "pros" and "cons" they wouldn't show up.

Otherwise, I'd say get rid of the review option altogether. As I said, people don't use it because they don't want to, not because it's not in front. Sticking it in front won't force people to suddenly begin writing in-depth reviews.

It's a simple question Brandon, with 2 simple options. Make it as complicated as you want, but that's all it is.

I wasn't attempting to make it complicated. Simply a suggestion for consideration further down the line. You asked for input, and I gave my input.

Despite my desire for people to write in-depth reviews, I'm going to have to vote for "Comments First."

Unfortunately, I can't really see people using the review feature in its current state I think we'd end up with a lot of reviews with blank "pros" and "cons" boxes, essentially rendering it the same as the comments tab, but more unwieldy.

Yes, I voted for the "simple options" but I really like Jordan's and Brandon's layout. Maybe sometime in the future.........

If people take the time to write a pretty much useless ''Great, 10+", then perhaps going a bit further and writing a small review might not be that challenging or time consuming.
I think that most people simply do not want to write anything like a review (maybe except for some regulars), they just want to get exposure and points in return for a mostly meaningless comment that takes 10 seconds to write instead of a two minute or so effort. If it's so, then switching to the reviews as default might not help much, if at all.

I say get rid of the Comments tab and retain the Review tab. Failing that yes, Review should be first.

I never use the Review tab now because nobody looks at it but I certainly would if it was default, or the only one.

with the level of wow merchants if you remove the comments tab you will simpl get no reviews,
if its a simple tweak your after them Im with leave it as is or delete the review tab altogether !

BaronImpossible you hardly comment so its not a big deal to you but to the ones who vote and comment all the time yes it is a big deal
I my self dont feel like spending 2 minutes taking about a post. I will become a lurker of GFX if this changes, and you will see vote count and comments die.
well from me any ways..
the review tab been tested and it didnt work out.. just my 2 cents.

Oops, didn't realize clicking on the link would actually cast my vote. I thought it was a link to something more specific about each one.

But I agree with kitty. i think the review function has been there (for what? 2years?) and it's been pretty much a failure. People want to comment and vote. Just leave it at that.

I think the comments tab is an 'enabler' of sorts. And the failure of the review tab is (imo) because it is so hidden.

I think 5 second comments with no thought put on them are as good as no comments at all. I say review tab should be visible first to courage people use it more.

That said, I think JordansRoot's mock up looks like an good idea.

I used the reviews function a long time ago, but stopped. To be frank, a lot of people here are so point-oriented that they don't care about in-depth feedback on their artwork. They're merely posting for the oohs and aahs. At the moment, points and the efforts to please overshadow true artistic merit, drive, style and concept. Maybe if the point system wasn't so prevalent, the reviews would fare better?

I think the "Reviews" tab should be removed and everyone should strive to leave the type of comments that  chickenfingers so often leaves on our artworks.

I wonder sometimes if we had only a reviews section....would be have reviews...and steer away the +10 wow commentators. Just as I wonder if the comment section promotes that behavior...or it's just people in general.

I'm inclined to agree with KittyKat about the time factor...however, as I too think a hybrid would work best, I don't plan on programmer support.

BUT, if the majority does say they want to switch, I'll try and push for it. If not, we just leave it alone.

Pam, maybe BaronImpossible doesn't really comment because most comments he and many others get are good for nothing but one's ego?

The friendly / 10+ voters won't go away unless the criteria for posting comments change to such they'd pretty much have to be reviews.

There's one problem with reviews as well, though.
Let's say you have an artwork of someone who's just a beginner or not very skilled but eager to improve. Now if someone else comes who's fairly proficient, lists only negatives, apparently thinking it's complete crap, not suggesting how to make it better, then it's not of much more help than a casual 10+ voter's comment.

That said, I'm for putting reviews first.

_quote:

---

BaronImpossible you hardly comment so its not a big deal to you but to the ones who vote and comment all the time yes it is a big deal

---

It's not a big deal to me, you're right, I'd be pretty sad if it was. And no, I don't comment so much now. Still, I have posted many hundreds of comments in the time I've been here and in the main they've been constructive; if any person says they'd rather get a +10 "perfect" rather than a constructive crit then they are not an artist and they'll never become one.

I don't want to give the impression I'm particuarly fussed one way or another, I'm not. It would just be sad to see a site with such potential go down the crapper for want of a few simple changes. Yes, some people wouldn't like it and they'd leave but hey, if I want quantity over quality I'll go to DA.

I'd say 'reviews only' but it's simply too timeconsuming. Besides, the review button is almost invisible to most people because they hurry down to the comment box after seeing the image, that's just a habit. I've done my share of advanced critting but not everyone appreciates that. Deviantart has an option where you can encourage or discourage advanced crits. Maybe that would work so people know wether you want it so it won't be a waste of time.

On the other hand; I get the impression that the culture of GFX has changed into what the sites' appearance has turned it into. If this culture wants a more shallow approach, than so be it. Maybe people should just accept it.
But I shouldn't be the one to talk because I haven't donated my share for quite a while now and I don't know the new crowd.

I do have to say; Pam, I'm glad an artist like Simon still contributes to the site. If it was suddenly all about 'our social community' the last pieces of quality art wouldn't be seen here at all. I rather see his art here than his comments on my work all the time. (Simon talking doesn' make any sense anyway )

Now, see  ARTOONATOR, just to annoy you I'm going to go comment on your latest work and it's going to make no sense whatsoever (BTW - thanks )

Thanks for the input you two....I appreciate it.

Not to sound evil, but I like what Simon wrote:

"Yes, some people wouldn't like it and they'd leave but hey, if I want quantity over quality I'll go to DA."

Each site used to be unique....DA had socialization down...CGTalk was top notch quality works...but GFX used to be THE place to go for constructive crits. Now it's slowly diminished into a carbon copy DA with +10's instead of emoticons.

If you were to do 2 Reviews a day....just 2...and everyone followed suit. You would see such a growth in the community in regards to standards...improvement...and most of all how you yourself view artwork. People would find themselves actually studying a work rather than glancing at it before shuffling off to the next new submission.

Unfortunately I don't think that would happen as long as they had a choice not to.

Just another .02

And what happened if you remove the comment tab and its all been said by others in the review tab ?
Do you just type "all been said " WOW in each box ?

At least with the comment tab you can make it as complicated or as simple based on how you feel.

In addition, wouldn't the Review tab ON option make it harder for people to say how they feel in areas they know little about ? say 3D for me or Vectors or painting they are not my fields But I am happy to drop a Well done I like it compliment to the artist... With the comment Tab you can do that but with the review tab only you have made it more complicated and time consuming !

I have to admit that I totally forgot about the review-tab, when I returned.
With me, visiting this site normally works like this:
The first thing I do is to go to my artwork-page and check the "last critique" line. If I see there's a new one, I go check it. But it does not show reviews, so I'd have to go from work to work and check, if someone reviewed it. (or maybe I missed something that shows it?)
So I agree with you. It's too hidden atm. So maybe an additional line in the artwork-page would help, if that's possible. And if the 3-line-typo is an issue then maybe "Amount of critiques: 3" could be changed into: "Critiques: 3 / Reviews: 1".
Well, anyhow, I'll try to use the review-tab more often.

I say keep the comment-tab and ditch the review dito!

Reason is that WE are not ready to spend even more of our valuable time in writing these detailed comments (WHO is about to spend their time doing them). We need more members to actually comment all together (haven't I said this a 100 times before already?) lol

If we enforce a more difficult and time consuming comment function (ie review) we will see less comments all together imo.

Although more detailed comments are more useful for the actual artist I doubt we have enough "active" members who will do just that, even if it will be enforced.

You can still vary in amount and details in the existing comment-tab. It is all about who writes them...

Even though I´d love to get reviews, I must admit I don´t have the time to leave a really profound crit there, and I suppose neither does the majority of us.
What I´d really like is to simplify it and get some more feedback from voting. Imagine getting a detailed voting on each of the review items. That would be quick, and much more informing. No more LOL, WOW, NICE ONE or PREEETY, and some real feedback about how your pictures work (if I want my selfesteem up I show my pictures to my mom )
Anyways, there´re no programmers, so that can´t be

How difficult would it be to allow the poster to choose whether the Comment or the Review tab is displayed, via a checkbox? I know there's no real programming resource available but if it's a quick fix it might solve the problem. That way, people who just want the Wow +10s are free to receive them and those that want honest feedback and want to improve can choose that option instead. The added benefit is that everyone can see what the artist wants and comment / crit accordingly.

ARTOONATOR I wasnt knocking on BaronImpossible for his comments or how many he gives I wish he would give more like the old days...but hey those days are gone...
ARTOONATOR remember the old days here?
eh good times =)

Maybe if Arno, Martijn or Marvin had a bit of spare time, a simple comment rating system could be added.
If the 10+ voters' comments got modded down to oblivion, maybe they'd think twice about what they write down.

Another thing, which should be a very easy and quick code change - there could be a name next to each vote.
Another thing, but a little more complex:
If someone votes as low as half of their max., it should be compulsory to leave a comment stating why, and I don't mean the kind of 'This sucks' comments. Other members and author of the artwork can then mod it up or down or not at all, depending on their preferences... and a list of voters would be nice.

It's pretty much what PhotoSig does and it seems to work, sometimes.
There should be hints for modding comments, though.